The father of a friend of mine from work died last week. The funeral was today. To show our coworker support, our team went to the funeral. This is the first funeral I have ever been to. I guess it was what I expected: sad, reminiscing about the one who passed away, songs, scripture reading, and lots of family and friends coming together to remember the life of some they loved so dearly. Even though I didn't know or ever meet my friends dad, it was very impactful and I felt very sad. It really got me thinking and has left me in this weird, emotional funk all day long. Lots of thoughts about dying and what happens after people die.
Okay, so pizza. There are probably thousands of types of pizza. There are all kinds of crusts, sauces, cheeses, toppings, and sizes. You can buy pizza from a restaurant, the frozen food section from a store, or make it yourself. Some like the thin, New York style and swear it's the best; other like thick, Chicago style pizza and can't fathom a better pizza. And there is everything in between.
But sometime ago, somewhere, someone made the first pizza ever. It was the original. THE pizza. And even though we have lots of different variations of pizza, none of them will probably ever be like the original. Still, there is probably something in every pizza that resembles the original. A thread that links all pizza's that have ever been or ever will be made and eaten. A common denominator, if you will.
Yet, despite the commonality of all pizza's everywhere, we will never know what the very first, original pizza consisted of. We only have remnants of it through what has been passed down from generation to generation. And if you asked pizza lovers everywhere to make a pizza and enter it into a "make the perfect pizza" contest, there would be a common thread, but no two pizza's would turn out the same, despite the fact that all the "perfect" pizza's entered would claim to be "the perfect pizza." But they wouldn't be, because there was only one, "original" and perfect pizza (Round Table Pizza.... hehe j/k well, it's my favorite pizza, I just don't think it's the original and first pizza ever made).
I find "religion" to be the same. Before people freak out, I am not saying that there are many ways (religious paths) to the top of the mountain (God). I think that theory is actually extremely ridiculous. If one religion claims to be the ONLY correct religion and it is, then all the others are wrong, so there goes that theory. If that same religion claims to be the ONLY correct religion and it's wrong, then all paths don't really lead to the top then because now we've found one that is wrong; so again, that theory isn't correct. I digress... anyway, I believe that there is one true religion/faith (an original pizza).
But it seems that no matter which church you go to, no matter what kind of service you attend or speaker you hear about religion (Sunday morning, Weddings, Funerals, Baptisms, TV evangelists, politicians), all the messages are pretty much the same: if you believe you will be saved. Yet, this is played out in people's lives in many different ways. And when you have one on one convos w/people, there are many more details that totally conflict amongst the various religions (lots of kinds of pizzas). Yet people build their lives and make huge decisions based on a belief system that they can only ever know only part of the truth because so much is not documented or provable.
What makes you so sure that your belief system is correct?? (btw: that isn't a rhetorical question... I want people to answer that).
Here's the thing though, I want facts. Personal experiences (like seeing the light and feeling stuff and just knowing in your bosom) don't count. Well, they count, just not for the way I want you to answer this question. Obviously a belief system (whether you believe in God or not) requires much faith. I know there is a lot of personal experiences and testimony out there, but for now, I want to just focus on the scientific, factual evidence.
What "facts" and evidence (like science) do you have to support why your belief system is correct? How do you "know" that you are correct about what you believe regarding what happens after death? When you are at a funeral and look at a casket of someone who is no longer physically alive, how can you be so certain that they are in Heaven, Hell, simply don't exist, or whatever else your belief system might lead you to embrace as truth.
I suspect that many people won't answer this question because it will require some research (at least that is what I am assuming). This would be easy to say, "I feel..." or "I just know..." or "the Bible* says..." - but I don't want to know how those sentences end for you right now. I want to know how science supports your beliefs.
I will not be answering this question btw. Just reading your answers.
FYI: I realize the pizza analogy was lame, but I like pizza and I like analogies so it worked for me. lol
*I realize the Bible is one piece of evidence, but for this, I don't want to hear verses unless it also aligns with something outside the Bible, too (ex: Noah and the ark *plus* there is actually physical evidence of a world wide flood and here is the evidence....).
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28 comments:
Very interesting quetion, Jess, and one to which I have no answer. I am looking forward to seeing what others write. I am someone who likes factual, scientific, hard proof so have asked this question of others in the past.
Good topics lately :-)
Lots of love to you!
Jana
Hey, I'd like to answer this question, just not in the blog format - If you want you can call or we can just talk about it in 2 weeks if you want.
Eh, I did want to point out one thing on here though. Your pizza analogy is flawed. Pizza isn't a rational being, Pizza isn't going to try to preserve and protect its true nature. This is unlike God. God interacts with mankind; it only makes sense that He is going to prevent his message from changing and being lost in the millions of kinds of pizza. Because of this we can infer the one true God, has given his one true message given to mankind, and that message isn't lost over time.
I like the pizza analogy. The point is made about how we all "know" what the "perfect" pizza is - and yet, it's not the same pizza is it?
-Lori
My experience has led me to believe, quite strongly, that humans invented religion and no one has the answer.
Does that mean I don’t believe in God? No. I just think God is WAY bigger than we can even begin to understand and that WE have created God in our likeness so that we can understand God. Our values are inserted into God’s values as needed. For instance, in the Old Testament there were MANY customs that were done that are not done now. Men could have more than one wife. Slaves could be owned. Bread had to be made a certain way; swine could not be eaten. Did the God who made the universe really care about rules/habits such as these? My conclusion is -no. I think it was an honest reflection of the values and needs of those historical times.
Religion is then derived from “interpretation” of the bible. How many different interpretations do we have today – with just Christianity alone? How much is interpretation exploited by power and politics? History is full of examples.
The sentiment “You must be born-again and have a personal relationship with Jesus or you go to hell”. First of all, there was no “personal relationship with Jesus” at first (except those that really had a physical earthly relationship). The Catholic Church was the start of Christianity. A personal relationship with Christ did not occur until after Martin Luther – or the Protestant beginnings. ……(The evolution of Christianity?). Again, a change due to shift in the cultural/political times. I am not picking on Christianity. I think this is universal with all religions. For me this is evidence that humans have defined God.
I have not always viewed things as such. I started out with a belief taught to me common in my part of the world and culture. Unfortunately, I have had too many experiences/insights/life-lessons that led me to a different conclusion than that which was taught to me. I say unfortunately because it is unfortunate to not have the answers! It would be much easier to make sense of the world. It would be much easier to explain away pain and suffering. It would be much easier to have a built-in support system. It would be much easier to face death. Religion does serve a very important function and I cannot blame those who engulf themselves in it whole-heartedly.
So.
So I will continue to open myself up to the possibilities of God touching my life. I will continue to love good over evil, ………but I will not settle for any religion that I feel is man made. ……Which, in my opinion, are all of them.
May all that is good become eternal.
May all that is evil end.
That is all.
-Lori
*SPOILER* No facts in this comment.
The hopelessness, the emptiness, SAD... To those of you turning your nose up saying that I use religion to somehow make my self feel better or give me hope or feel purpose, I don't use religion for those purposes but they are side effects. To use the (annoying to some) cliche, What if I'm right and you're wrong? Lets look at it the other way. If I'm wrong, what do I give up? Some drinking? Pre-marital sex? Swearing? Etc... not that all non religious people partake in these things and not that I abstain 100% they are just examples of things I might be missing out on. I still would end up in the ground after some 70 (hopefully) years and in the exact same place and someone who does not believe as I do. but back to the original question, What if I'm right? What do you give up? Hope of a "after life" spent with God. Having a purpose in life beyond going to work and raising the next generation to be "good people". Not worrying about sickness and diseases and death beyond the temporal physical effects. The lists could go on and on for both sides and what a person would be giving up if they are wrong. But I would definitely want to error on the side that "might" lead into eternity in heaven as opposed to the one that "might" lead into eternity in hell. This life is too short in the scope of a possible eternity to accuse people of inventing religion to make them feel as if they understand God. Please, please, please contemplate the consequences of "What if I'm wrong" vs. "What if I'm right". Weigh them against each other with an open mind. But there is soooo much more than just "fire insurance" religion. Just because someone coined the phrase "personal relationship with Jesus" does not mean that it was not a concept until that period of time. All throughout the Bible, not just the old testament, it taught that is paramount that one should be in such an intimate knowledge of God (and Jesus) and His ways and His holiness and that He wants to know us and for us to let Him into our personal lives. I think whoever it was was correct in calling it a relationship. It is documented in secular books that Jesus was a real person, that he had followers, that He was crucified and that over 500 of His followers claimed to have seen him alive after his death. If those people who claimed to see him were lying, why did so many of them die (documented in secular writings) such gruesome and painful deaths for this lie? No one would die for something they knew was a lie (if they didn't see Him after His death). What a beautiful thing hope and life purpose is. I don't claim to be better than anyone, I am not perfect by any means, just forgiven.
- John
John, I will address this further when I have time (on my way to work).
But I do want to say I don't mean to make a personal attack. I am expressing it from a conclusion based on my experience/observation. There are complexities here that go WAY beyond the scope of blog commenting, but I will try to address them further.
One other thing, just because I do not claim to have the answers I do not feel empty or hopeless. There is a quite peace from knowing, truth, whatever form that takes, will prevail in the end.
More later.
Peace.
Lori
The problem with the "What if I'm right?" arguement is that if this is how someone is convinced to be saved, do they really believe? Presenting the consequences of "What if I'm wrong?" could be perceived as an attempt to instill fear (which is exactly my problem with the entire issue of an existence of hell). Someone saying that they believe because they want to experience the things John listed here or because they are afraid of the after-life is really different than truly believing it. And even I am pretty sure that it's the truly believing part that's important. I don't think saying it or acting it out for "insurance" is quite what they meant.
(I just read what I wrote and wanted to add that I'm not trying to imply that anyone commenting here is just saying they believe. I'm only commenting on using the arguement John presented to convince others to believe. It's early!)
I'm still waiting to read the answers to your question about facts, Jess. I know that this is a personal issue and conversation for many of you, but it is also a very interesting one that happens around the world in every religion or culture. I'm hoping some will comment here with the information you were looking for. I certainly don't have any answers!
Jana
First off I also mean no personal attacks. I believe every word from the heart.
I agree that the what if... is not the end or get out of jail free card. But If someone takes a really deep look into those issues it could be a starting point. One that would cause someone to look deeper. The desire for hope and purpose and a "relationship" with God, or the fear of hell and emptiness can be one of many ways a person can "come to Christ" (btw i think your idea and understanding of what hell is and why its there might not be complete as Bible believing Christians understand it)
Also what is truth?
- John
I don't know what truth is. I just think that all that is true will prevail over all that is false.
It is the defining of truth that people disagree on.
More later.
A. Lori
Hell.
“To Christians, Hell is a place where the souls of the wicked are punished eternally for all the sins they perpetrated during their lifetime on Earth. Since all have sinned (Rom 3:23), Hell can not be avoided on one's own merits, but through the love gift of Jesus one can know, love, and serve God and share eternity with Him in Heaven.” -Conservapedia
I am going to tell you why I do not believe in it. In doing so, it is not a personal attack on those who believe in hell, it is an explanation of my own reasoning and soul-searching. It is the basis for my conclusion.
As a parent, I cannot imagine loving a person anymore than I do my own children, and yet God’s love must be so much greater. Under no circumstance, no matter how unruly or defiant my child became, would I want her to suffer – especially for all eternity. Why would God? Okay, so he doesn’t WANT us to suffer, he wants us to accept his salvation/love. The choice is ours. This is where I find a major flaw. For example, if I tell my daughter to love me and follow my rules or else she will spend the rest of her life in her bedroom, in chains while someone torments her, what kind of “choice” or “free will” does she have? None, absolutely none if she wants to be spared torment. How much can you love someone that gives that sort of ultimatum?
Also, think about pure evil. Hitler comes to mind. Brutal raw terrible evil. If anyone deserves “hell” he surely does. However, at least for me, I would not want to see him tormented for eternity. (Just a little while!). Because, as long as he was suffering –evil would exist. Evil would be alive because suffering is evil. How could an all-loving God be less forgiving than me? It doesn’t add up.
Now, combine all this with the history of religion. All religions. All religions throughout time. Different interpretations, different Gods and Goddesses The true God, the truer God.
No consensus.
But what if the Christian God is the true God and all others are fakes to deceive? Well, let’s look at that.
First,
Fact: If you are born in Palestine, you are going to be Muslim, with rare exception.
Fact: If you are born and raised in a small town in the South of the United States of America, you are, with rare exception going to identify as a Christian.
Now, if indeed you need to believe in Jesus Christ in order to get to heaven, then the Palestinian is automatically born into the world at a HUGE disadvantage. Fair? I think not. In fact, it is one of the many reasons that convince me that humans invent religion. You can flip the coin from the other perspective as well. For all those that are Muslim or Jewish, or Hindu that think Christians are lost/wrong, you can say the same thing about statistical odds and an in-built bias.
Well that’s probably enough. This is only some of the things I have thought about to bring me to my own opinion on one matter, hell. There are so, so many. I am not challenging anyone to think like me, but perhaps you can better understand why I have come to at least one conclusion that hell does not exist, at least not as defined above. Perhaps evil will cease and good will live on forever. Perhaps it is the decisions we make now to fill our souls with “Godliness” “good” “Jesus’ love” or whatever definition we assign- that will allow us “eternal life”. Perhaps those that choose evil will have souls that merely parish and end. I don’t know. But for me, I DO know that fear of a tormented after-life is not good enough for me to believe. It wouldn’t be real.
-Lori
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts thus far! I won't say whose arguements are better at this point, but as Jana pointed out, no one has presented facts yet. Lots of feelings and perceptions (which I TRULY believe are absolutely relevant and necessary in a belief system) but I still see no facts.
I suspect that I won't get any answers w/facts... that the reason I think that is for the very reason that I am not answering this AND ironically the very reason I am ASKING this question... I do not have any either.
I don't have facts that Hell does not exist. However, I have used reasoning to explain why I believe it couldn't exist.
-Lori
Oh, one more point. A relationship with God, or any spiritual connection, I believe requires faith, not fact.
And since it does require faith, humans should be humble in their journey.
Don't you have to have even a little factual evidence that someone exists before you can have a relationship with them?
Let's say I believe in a Monkey Cheese god. Can I have a relationship w/the Monkey Cheese god before I can prove he exists or is it enough that I believe he exists?
Well, first of all..."Monkey Cheese God" ....you make me laugh!
Second, if you needed facts to believe a certain religion, then there would be a set of facts for only one and you would think the "unfactual" religions would realize it and switch over!
Therin lies the problem, everyone thinks they have the "facts" or some form of verification, even if, infact, they don't.
I think people make what they feel is the best/correct path and, since there is virtually no proof, they use faith to seal the deal and so begins the journey........albeit on many different paths.
Using the same argument that just because someone believes something does not make it true or mean that it exists. Just because you don't think that it exists does not mean it doesn't.
John, Lori, Jana- good points to ponder!
The definition of hell and of the "God of love" described has very little if any basis from the Bible. That blurb from conservipedia is extremely watered down. To understand hell why God would "send" people there you must have a correct understanding of who God is, not some wishy-washy "I think that God is this or is that". If we (being a Christian or someone who just believes in a higher power or cosmic force) can't understand how life came into being or how this "God" function then how, or better, why do we think that we can relate Him with parenting or relationships or our parents? Just because we have experiences or feelings does not mean or give us the right to assume that God acts or thinks or functions the way we do. The God of the Bible IS Love, but it does not stop there. He is also perfect and absolutely Holy, beyond comprehension. Thus heaven is a place of purity and holiness. The very nature of God cannot co-exist with sin. God did not make us sin. He is not up there giving us an ultimatum that if we don't love/obey Him that he will send us to "our bedrooms" to be tormented forever. Our choices and actions demand (because of who He is and His unfathomable Holiness) that we are separated from Him. He desires that none should perish, but he cannot and will not force anyone to be perfect, choose Him or sin. "Well, I'm a good person." Again, we cannot comprehend the Holiness of God and that any sin, big or little, one or a million, separates us from His glory. "That's not the God I know or want to serve." The truth is that it doesn't matter what we want. Again, why do we assume that God functions as we do? The great news is that because God IS Love, and He gave us a way to become pure in His sight despite our sin. He willfully and freely gave His own Son as a payment for our sin. Before he gave a way it was utterly impossible to avoid hell. After, He sees those who accepted Christ's action as holy. It is free. "Why do we need to accept it? If God is love then why doesn't he give it to everyone?" We chose to sin, we need to acknowledge that and choose forgiveness.(Transition) Hell is not simply a place where "people are punished for their sins", it is a place of eternal separation from God, from His Love.
I must try to be clear on this as I have obviously not been. Fear is not a reason to believe. Reward is not a reason to believe. I agree totally that it would be fake it those were the only reasons. My point is that those things, as well as many, many other things may help someone take a closer look at who God is, how God views them and their need for salvation.
Without a proper understanding of who God is (trust me, I think that He is way more than we will comprehend in this lifetime, but I do think that we have a glimpse) and His holiness it is impossible to know or even think that we need a Savior.
Personally I think the argument of "I don't think that God would do that or be that way" is WAY more man-made than religion because there is no basis except for personal experience.
To conclude (your welcome XD):
If anyone reading this has witnessed Clarks debating then you know that no one wins!
Love you all!!!
- John
John, very good points made there! thanks for the reminder and for taking time to spell it all out =) love you!
And yes, Clarks like to have these friendly debates, even if no one "wins" =) We also like naps. Just saying hehe
I purposefully used the definition of Hell from conservapedia, as to bias on the conservative/Christian side. Again, there are many tenants of doctrine, even amongst Christians.
You source of truth comes from the bible, which is fine, except that there are a million different interpretations. That brings me back to the original argument that man interjects *truth* by means of interpretation. For as much as you are convinced that your interpretation of the bible is true, there are hundreds of other religions that feel EXACTLY the same about their interpretation.
With no uncertainty, if you were born in Palestine, you would not be a Christian right now. If you were born in Israel, you would be Jewish. China? India? The list goes on. And you most certainly would believe with all your heart the same conviction for another religion.
The points you make are written in the bible, but they have been translated throughout the years in different languages/meanings. Even now in the United States, with Christianity alone, there are hundreds of interpretations on single topics alone.
This all comes back to proof, which there is none.
This is why when people quote scripture, it doesn't impress me, because there are so many takes on it.
There is no way you can wholeheartedly give your life to your God/Jesus without believing the premise that you do. So argumentation is moot unless a premise has consensus, and clearly we do not share the same premise.
I do respect your walk. I am glad that you, in your daily walk in life choose the higher things in life and seek things/actions that are uplifting. In this we agree.
Peace
(and not in a neo-hippy left-leaning way. oh wait, you probably see it that way)
:-)
A. Lori
Jess, have you ever read "The Case for Christ"? It's an interesting book, you should read it if you haven't.
I don't believe hell will be a place of physical torture and suffering and I don't know that I believe in literal fire because then hell would not be dark like the Bible says it is.
The "torture" and "suffering" in my mind comes from an eternal life separated from God. And to blame God for "sending" them there... well isn't a life separated from God what those in hell wanted all along anyway?
I think it is good to come to a crisis of faith. What do I believe and why. There are soo many different beliefs out there and I myself have contemplated what makes mine right and all others wrong.
First, let me steal a quick blurb from Beth Moore's Believing God study:
Hebrews 11:3 - By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
The means of understanding the universe was formed at God's command is...faith.
This verse implies that God will not allow every shred of doubt over His Creatorship to be removed.
You might ask 'why not!' Vs. 6 tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God.
And vs 1 defines faith as - being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
So as Aunt Lori says - A relationship with God, or any spiritual connection, requires faith, not fact.
On that note, I believe God has given much proof of His existence and who He is:
In the book The Source, authors John Clayton & Nils Jansma make a case for creationism by showing the improbability of Earth's possessing all of the necessary conditions to support life by chance. They explain how probabilities are figured using a deck of cards. The chances of drawing a specified card from a shuffled deck are obviously 1 in 52. If the card is reinserted and the deck reshuffled, the chances of randomly choosing the same card becomes 1/52x1/52 or 1 in 2704. Applying the same kind of math probability, they offer the following "Estimated Odds of Selected Variables Vital to an Earth-like Planet Occurring by Chance.":
Being in the right kind of galaxy 1 in 100
Being in the right place in the galaxy 1 in 150
Having the right kind of star 1 in 1000
Being the right distance from the star 1 in 10
Having the proper planetary mass 1 in 10
Having the proper planetary spin 1 in 10
Having the proper planetary tilt 1 in 10
Having comet-sweeping planets 1 in 40
Not being near a black hole 1 in 250
Having a large solitary moon 1 in 10
Possessing a magnetic field capable of shielding 1 in 10
Total odds 1 in 150,000,000,000,000,000
Clayton brings his point home saying: 'If I offered you a billion dollars (tax free) to jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet w/out a parachute, w/ the proviso that you had to live to collect it, would you accept the offer?...The odds of there being an 'accidental' planet hospitable for life using only the few parameters we have considered are 15 billion times less likely than surviving a free-fall from an airplane.'" Just a side note - John Clayton is a scientist and former 2nd generation atheist who "came to believe God while attempting to prove that the Bible contradicts known scientific facts. Instead of disproving the Bible, he found it to be absolutely reliable."
There are so many more proofs of Intelligent Design right in our own complex and wonderfully made bodies - the single cell w/ a nucleus, for example, is the microscopic equivalent of an entire high-tech, industrialized city. (Also from Clayton & Jansma) Our individual outstretched DNA can reach back and forth to the sun about 50 times! And just take a peek at how our eyes work. Amazing amazing amazingly made. Also, what about the earth we live on and the sky we see every day. The heavens declare the glory of God!
Here are some websites I found that can give you a lot more information:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/science
http://tikkiro.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/there-is-proof-god-exists/
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/how-was-old-testament-preserved.html
With all of this said, I encourage you to go to The Source. God declares who He is and needs no one to prove His existence for Him. He states in Isaiah "I am the Lord, and there is no other...I, the Lord, speak the truth; I declare what is right."
He says in Jeremiah 33-Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know. Proverbs 2 admonishes us to ask for wisdom & insight from Him.
He is faithful to answer those who seek Him.
http://www.seekgod.org/bible/seekinggod.html
I hope I gave this some sort of justice. It is very late and I am exhausted. I love you and am praying for you. Your Sista
There is a lot to address Tiff, so let me just start with Hebrews
11:3. I am not a bible scholar, but this is what I found:
Hebrews 11:3 (New King James Version) Change
American Standard Version
Amplified® Bible
Contemporary English Version
Darby English Version
Good News Bible
King James Version
New International Version
New King James Version
Young's Literal Translation
(3) By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
We have generally understood this verse to mean that the material creation, which we can clearly see, was produced from invisible spirit. It is certainly a possible meaning, but it is probably not its primary one. In his book, Great Cloud of Witnesses (pp. 12-14), E. W. Bullinger provides an alternative that appears more accurate and fitting within the context of Hebrews 11.
The word "worlds" is translated from the Greek aion, meaning "age," in the sense of a period of time or a dispensation. It derives from a root that means "continued," and it is used as "world" only when "world" gives a better sense of a period of time, not the physical creation. It could be used if one said "the world that then was" or "the world to come."
"Framed" also appears in Hebrews 10:5, where it is more clearly and accurately translated "prepared." It means "to complete thoroughly," "to rule" (even "overrule"), or "to order" (by God in this case). "Word" is not logos but rhema, meaning "revealed words." Finally, "made" is ginomai, which means "to generate," "to cause to be," "to happen," or "to come to pass." It is not the word normally used to indicate God is creating.
Using these definitions, we could translate the verse as, "By faith we perceive by the revealed words of God that the ages were prepared, so that the things we see come to pass not from things that appear." Those of us who walk by faith know that a great Unseen Hand guides, indeed overrules, events on this earth. This verse means that the historical events we read of in God's Word were not chance occurrences, but God was working behind the scenes to bring His purpose to the conclusion He has foreordained. In short, it says, "God controls the march of history." The great men and women listed in Hebrews 11 lived their lives firmly knowing this truth. That is why they could live in faith.
source: http://theberean.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Home.showBerean/BereanID/655/Hebrews-11-3.htm
This is a completely different translation from the one you have given me. Whether the translation is correct or not, is moot. It further demonstrates that there are many interpretations of scripture.
This further demonstrates humans interjecting.
More later.
I guess it's my turn to way in. The bible was written over a period of 2000 years, by men and women from all walks of life, doctors, fishermen, tax collectors etc. Yet not one word has been proven to be written in error. (Archeology and other ancient text are proving more and more of the bible as truth all the time.)The need for many translations is because the meaning of various words have changed, not the original content. In Roman's 1:19-20 says (in the NIV version) "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." God has given us so many examples of His existance and of His character! Jessica how many times have you heard me say that He gave us an example of eternity by giving us the stars. Even though we can't wrap our little brains around how God has existed "forever" we know "forever" exists just by looking at the stars! I do not believe in evolution, that all things evolved out of chance and single cells, no way! How can anyone say, with a straight face,that a turtle and an ant have anything genetically in common. I do think the big bang theory has some strong possiblity for being scientifically true, but I know if it happened, it was God that put it into motion. There are absolutes in science because God, who is perfect, created them. Next and again to quote scripture Gen. 1:27 "So God created man in his own image" Just like you,John, Charlie and Greg have some of our characteristics we also have some of God's..we enjoy each others company, we want the best for our children's lives even if that means we have to disipline them when they get off track,we are creative beings, we have a sense of humor (just look at some of the bugs, fish, birds,He has come up with!How can anyone scuba dive or snorkel and not give thanks to God for all He's created for His and our enjoyment!)
All cultures in some way or another have acknowledged that a "diety" exists and created the heavens and the earth. What I've written is just stating the obvious as to why I agree. But your question was why do I believe what I believe, Since I stated my reasons for believing that the bible is God's words to us and even the Muslim and Jewish believers acknowledge the first 5 books of the Bible the cruxt of the questions rests on Jesus. Specifically as to why I believe that Jesus is the only way to God...The Bible fortold of Jesus's coming lots and lots of times. Instead of listing them all here you can go to this website and look up as many verses as you'ld like. The odds of one person fulfilling all of these prophesis is astronomical (help me out here Jon, you probably know the odds :D) http://www.allabouttruth.org/messianic-prophecy.htm
I don't know what else to say to you Hon. I just know that from where Christ found me to where I am today is a journey that I could not have taken on my own and not be bogged down with guilt and baggage. I was "born again." And I truely believe that the Spirit of God lives in me. I feel His guidance and His presence and I just KNOW that my soul will continue to love God and to live long after this earthly body of mine has ceased to exist.
I love you Hon, you always keep me on my toes.
Hey Jess,
As I don't have much time to debate this further, I will end my comments for now. :-) However, as I run across thoughts, writings, or other bits of info in regard to this topic, I will pass it on to you.
I think my main point about perception/interpretation has been made.
To sum: There is something much greater than ourselves out there, as your mom said, the stars are an example of eternity. (I love thinking about space more than anything! It is mind-boggling that some stars are so far away, that it has taken millions of LIGHT years to reach us, and they probably don't exist anymore)
Anyway, what was I saying? Ya, there is obviously something bigger than us, but be careful about interpretation. Be careful about doctrine. Most of all, always be yourself. You are so kind and humble and loving. I have no proof or facts, but I think a little bit of God lives in you.
I love you always,
A. Lori
Good post. I would love to talk more about this in person when i see you this weekend! yay!
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